258 Comments

Kemi spent the best part of 20 years being in the Conservative Party as it shifted away from her claimed political hero, Margaret Thatcher towards something more like the SDP. Not tearing up her membership card and joining UKIP, happily standing as a Conservative candidate in 2017 after 7 years of the Conservatives doing nothing, except what UKIP forced them to do. Watching May call the old Conservatives "the nasty party". Watching Cameron do nothing to object to Browns spending rises. Being in cabinet as they locked down the country and taxed us to the hilt?

How credible is someone who claims to be a Thatcherite who went along with all of that while taking no action to oppose it? And why should I give her 5 years to continue to be all mouth after all that?

For all his faults, Farage is clearly someone committed to what he says he is. And Reform are top of the polls. So, why bother with the possible fake when you can have the real?

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I’m with you there, however she’s just been on a podcast with Jordan Peterson for 90 minutes and whilst he tends not to ask difficult questions she sounded ok.

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I will definitely give that a listen Steve. Just to clarify. I do not want Kemi to fail. But she seems to me, so far, to be failing.

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OK, so just taking the section on Net Zero. She talks about how the 2019 Climate Act happens and talks as if the Conservatives HAD TO do something on this, as if there was no option, no choice but to pass a climate change act just to appease people in a minority government.

Let's get some facts here. This was 27th June 2019 that the bill came into effect. Theresa May was in power at this time, with a minority government, barely, propped up with support of the likes of the DUP. Theresa May did not need to pass this act, at all. She could have not bothered with it.

It should also be pointed out that on 20th April 2021, when Boris Johnson had a majority over 80, that he stated that "We want to continue to raise the bar on tackling climate change, and that’s why we’re setting the most ambitious target to cut emissions in the world.". So, let's be quite clear about this. At the time of having a clear majority, a Conservative Government still supported this, when they didn't have to. They even had the majority to repeal those acts. And a clear majority of Conservative MPs support this. This goes beyond cross-party co-operation. So, what is the true nature of the Conservative MPs? Will they loyally follow Kemi, or tell her behind closed doors that there will be a rebellion and we'll be stuck with them for 5 years?

But, what's her plan? It's all "brave, brave, Kemi" but OK, did she vote against it in 2019? Or 2021? She was so appalled by the lack of detail in the bill that she did what, exactly? And what is her actual commitment now? She doesn't once say in that video that she will end these bills that were passed, or to remove the Net Zero target. So, what should we believe Kemi will actually do, if she becomes PM? I am not interested in someone pushing my buttons to get a vote, I want someone who states their policy and who I can trust to deliver on it. And if you're not at least prepared to say "we repeal these acts within 30 days of getting into office" why should I believe that they're going to do anything?

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Such interesting points Timothy. Your last couple of lines speaks to a paradigm shift which has occurred since DT was elected.

A politician says they will do something if elected. And they do that thing. It doesn’t matter if it upsets the status quo, or will face legal opposition from vested interests, set the ball rolling make it happen. We can now see that there is no real excuse.

I agree that if a politician in Britain can convince enough voters that they really will make big changes, and quickly on these issues, immigration, crime, DEI, Net Zero, then there’s no reason they can’t win next time. Not sure Kemi has the power to convince enough people. Do the Reform Party? Not sure about that either. But I do know that no one will trust Labour. All the best.

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I think that sadly we (the British people) are not at rock bottom yet. Hard to believe but thats what I think speaking to people. Yes I know many people who think as you and I do that radical change is needed. I also know many more who still get their news from the BBC and the broadsheets who think that one half or the other of the uni-party is the answer. Until that changes we’ll continue to decline slowly and inexorably to 3rd world adjacent status. Like Eastern Europe was in the 1980’s.

I’m starting to think that our best hope is some kind of crisis or war that gets us to rock bottom quicker. Painful though that may be. And if anyone is capable of delivering that it’s Rachael from accounts and probably not Kemi.

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You are so right Tom. The way the legacy media still has power to shape the narrative is genuinely surprising. *everyone* hates Trump and thinks Elon is a villain.

When you ask why they have no real answer. Trump is nasty and Musk is a billionaire. If you ask for anything specific they have said or done that they find objectionable they will usually jump to ‘grab em by…’ and for Musk, ‘unelected’ or ‘only wants money’. As if the richest man in the world is motivated to make a few more millions by sacking government employees.

The accelerationist argument is compelling. But very worrying to me. Revolutions usually just end up with different people at the top screwing over the little people. And lots of dead little people.

I have no answer to how we can turn this around though. Europe might catch up to the US and restore democracy. But I worry that as you say, it’s going g to get a lot worse, before it gets any better. ATB

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Plenty of podcasters are saying that the legacy media is dead. They are wrong. I wish it were true but unfortunately it isn’t. I’m not really an accelerationist, in reality it will be horrible, and as you say it’s the little people who will suffer. They always do.

We need some kind of crisis thats big enough to wake people up and yet small enough to minimise the collateral damage. Quite what that is I don’t know.

A lot of things have already happened that you would have thought would have woken people up and yet..

Look at the blatant two tier justice we’ve seen recently, the cover up on the identity of the Southport attacker, the trans bollocks. You’d think that would lead to something. But it hasn’t.

I guess each time one of these things happens the scales fall from another few eyes. But god its a painfully slow process.

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It bothers me a bit that Trump supported an attack on Congress. That’s not as democratic as you might think. Pardoning the insurgents not so democratic either. Subverting the election was bad. Firing the federal employees who are not on the same political team? Democratic countries don't do that.

Making threats to Denmark and Canada, not good. We’ e had 80 years of peace in Europe. I doubt that will last much longer. Trump seems very friendly with Mr Putin. I don't expect NATO will survive another four years.

I’m pro-billionaire but I think Musk and Trump are violating the constitution and breaking the law at every turn. I don't expect this will end well. There was another period in history where autocratic governments demolished their countries’ democracies. That didn't turn out well either.

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I think Chechen conflicts might have something to say about the 80 years of peace. As might the Kosovans.

The threats are economic, not military. Ultimately the US can make much of what it needs. Putting trade restrictions in place when the restricted economy has the deficit is a way to leverage political change. It is, of course, daft as the only people really hurt are the customers.

I don't believe Trump or Musk are breaking the law. The court would have something to say about that. What Lefties are not liking is the dismantling of their power base, the entrench, lazy administration : which they knew is what Trump would go for and why they tried every underhand method of destroying him.

NATO will be fine: it relies upon America. If it fails it would be our fault for not properly funding our military as we've for far too long poured cash into the adminnistration of the military, but very little into our defences. This mindset is demonstrated by the open borders policy of the last 30 years and the lack of security / cover ups/ jailing of those speaking out against it.

What Trump is demonstrating is the flailing death throes of big state and proving tthe irrelevance of government and administration generally. It has failed us and crushing taxation is the weapon used against the citizen for rejection of it.

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I agree that the economic threats are very real and Trump's tariffs will cause problems for all of us. I also agree that the days of the big state are limited. I don't think even the Democrats will be a fan after this.

I'm not so sure about NATO. We'll see what happens to 'an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us' when Putin decides he'd like one of those Baltic states back. I think the Europeans will have to start making plans for a life after NATO too which will hasten the end of NATO even more.

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I don't know what planet you are on but we have had four years of subversion of democracy by the "Democratic" Party. I applaud 85 per cent of the Trump actions so far - and the other 15 per cent are just gambits, put out there to gauge reaction. If you accuse T & M of violating the constitution, then you should give examples. A scatter gun of accusations suggests you actually can't point to anything specific.

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The raid on Federal departments is unconstitutional.

An assault on Congress is not typical in a democracy and pardoning the revolutionaries that carried it out showed a certain contempt for the Constitution.

Trump's attempt to overturn the election is the kind of thing that would-be African dictators do. I think Trump's Vice President would agree with that.

34 out of 40 of Trump's government secretaries and ministers last time around said he was not fit to be president. His Chief of Staff said he was a fascist.

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Raid? How do you mean? Ah, the January 6th event, when from the CCTV nice people (with weird taste in hats) walked around property they own and pay for? You call that 'revolutionary behaviour'?

You've a strange relationship with public property: it's ours. All of it.

By overturn do you mean request a recount?

I'd point out that fascism is a Left wing concept. It started with a fellow called Giovanni Gentile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Gentile. Probably a nice chap but if you wanted a picture of a communist....

It sounds as if you don't like what Trump is doing for the same reason most folk applaud him. That's your right, but when America is growing, when prices are lower, when there are more jobs, when wealth is more evenly distributed (because low taxes on rich people has rich people get richer by building a factory and paying people to make stuff), when we, in socialist UK are ground into powder by statism, crippling taxation, massive debt and state waste where would you rather live?

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Take another look at the footage and tell me it was just nice people walking around in strange hats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3_O91gyj9o

There's a difference between asking for a recount and calling election officers to threaten them and erecting gallows and invading Congress to intimidate the Vice President.

BTW the person who called Trump a fascist was a conservative Republican former general in the Marines. Trump's Chief of Staff.

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extreme circumstances call for extreme measures. I'm done with worrying who gets their feelings hurt. Thats part of why the UK is in the awful mess it is now.Its time we hardened up in the UK to. There may be casualties everywhere.

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I'm curious though, Barbara. What is it about the UK that is such a mess? More than, say, 2003 or 1991 or 1979?

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Were you even in the country then, Ragged?

Crime rates (murders, attacks, theft etc), hospital treatments and waiting times, police responsiveness, trust in police, ambulance responses, less affordable houses, roads falling apart, litter, trust between citizens, trust in the legal system and the courts, trust in the BBC and other major media organisations, rough sleeping, widespread drug use ... Open your eyes, Ragged, or take a walk downtown.

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thank you Jos I was just trying to formulate the list when you did it for me. It makes me wonder where Ragged Clown lives. Bristol is it ? That bastion of greenery and socialist control that he appears to like .

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I opened my eyes.

The crime rate fell by 50% between 2000 and 2015. It started to creep up again in 2016 (no doubt because of immigration) but it is still much lower. The murder rate has fallen consistently since 2000 and is lower than it has ever been.

I lived in London in the 90s. Central London and all the inner neighbourhoods were all crime-ridden shitholes then but they are lovely now. Bristol back then was a wasteland. It's a great place to live now. There is much less litter now — I remember exactly what it was like then.

Trust in the BBC — and between citizens — is down because of the rise in agitators on social media and the influence of new media organizations that bring a distorted point of view.

I'm with you on health services, police and roads. I blame austerity.

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Err.. do you want a list?

Nip outside and look at the road. Any road. Then nip back and look at your council tax bill. At the grafitti. At the litter. At bin collections every two weeks. At the huge social care bill. At the crime rate. At your energy bill.

I'm sorry, but your comment is daft. In no other environment would you pay for such an appalling service as the state provides and it has, demonstrably and obviously got worse.

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Swings and roundabouts. As I said above, a lot of cities are dramatically better than they were 20 years ago even if homelessness and the state of the roads are worse than they were.

It also depends on how far you want to go back. There was quite a lot of litter in 1979 and that didn't improve by much until well into the Blair years. I don't think Cameron's austerity helped with that in the years since.

Serious crime has definitely gone down over the decades even if petty crime like shoplifting is a huge problem that we really need to address.

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That's right, Barbara. What's the worst that can happen? End of democracy. A bit of war. But at least we will have got rid of those horrible pronouns, eh?

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Democracy? We don't have it. Civil servants and NGOs make the running and our politicians just jump on to the gravy train for a few years, make their pile, then retire to the easy living of the House of Lords, the boards of some corporates or their villa by the Med.

I don't get you. You appear to be completely blind to the ills, nay evils, besetting the country. This is not a left/right argument but a right/wrong conflict

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I think you have a distorted view of the world. There's plenty wrong that we should fix — free speech, immigration, better crime management — but the country as a whole is doing pretty well.

I think there are some people with megaphones that give you a distorted opinion of what's going on.

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We do not live in a democracy now. Demos - the people / kratos - the power. Personally when the oaf Miliband stands up to say unreliables are cheap I, one of the Demos can't sack him and lock the fool away for lying to me. When could we, the public refuse a budget?

I - we - have no power over the political class. We get a vote every five years and one set of ties replaces the other and the policies - as Mr Opinions points out regularly - DO NOT CHANGE. We are being forced into decline.

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When was this period of democracy where you sack a minister without an election?

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"Firing the federal employees who are not on the same political team? Democratic countries don't do that. " Perhaps they should. Our policies are now made by unelected civil servants, judges, NGOs, international organisations and others. Our politicians appear to be pawns in their hands. I want change. The status quo is not acceptable.

I guess one billionaire you like is Soros who has tentacles everywhere in the UK, funding left wing and international organisations that want to crush dissent (ie anything they don't like) and who is doing his best to tie the UK back into the EU.

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Do you think Starmer should be firing conservative-leaning civil servants now? I think that would be appalling.

I don't know why you might think I like Soros. That's ridiculous.

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Ha ha do you really think he could find any? Unlikely.

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Haha! There must be some in there somewhere.

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"I’m pro-billionaire but I think Musk and Trump are violating the constitution and breaking the law at every turn" ... Ragged Clown

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I don't like that billionaire. I don't like people who violate the Constitution either. I don't see any conflict in that.

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Yes Tom. I fear that at a fundamental level people are quite content to watch the world burn around them. I sometimes wish I could be like that. Life would be simpler in some ways. And I’d have more friends. 😭

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I wouldn’t say that the Conservatives did nothing during their fourteen years in power: topping my list of bad things they did are a) Lockdowns, and b) Online Safety Bill.

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Slamdunk Valda! You are of course correct.

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Don't! The online harm bill was egregious legislation that typified their tenure and demosntrates the fundamental problem.

They made everything worse, Labour are just doing the same, faster!

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A wonderful piece, of a wonderful length!

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Thank you Dominic. It’s been a long time since I have been praised for my length. Very grateful.

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Oo-er, missus...

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🤣

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As the actress said to the bishop ...

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I am afraid that Kemi is unable to combat the combination of Starmer's endless deflections, enabled by a supine Speaker. But who judges a politician by PMQs? Only other politicians. Badenoch's greater problem is that nobody seems to be interested in what she has to say outside the Westminster bubble. Apart from the Lady Chief Justice, berating both Starmer and Badenoch for criticising a judge.

If a lefty lawyer comes up with a cunning argument to use a badly drafted law to persuade a judge that 1 and 1 is 3, the fault is with the law, although one would hope a judge would strive to give the law the interpretation that was so clearly intended. But the "law" that was set out in the ECHR, and now is enshrined in the Human Rights Act by Blair, is very broad brush, and lefty lawyers will continue to argue for the most absurd outcomes, if they favour their scumbag criminal clients.

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I agree about PMQs Jeremy. But that’s her most high profile regular platform. Which is itself a problem I think.

I’ve talked before about the ECHR. Maybe we should leave. But it really seems very reasonable when you read the actual thing. I posted up the Right To Family Life clause once before. There was nothing in it I would object to. That it is being weaponised by activist lawyers/judges is the real problem.

And just as banning people buying knives on Amazon will not bring a halt to extremist violence. So dumping the ECHR will not reign in this progressive excess. They want us to go after the ECHR. A five year fight to get out of it. And then they will simply use something else. We need to go after the roots of the problem. Not the tools these lawyers use to circumvent democracy.

Best to you!

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Why five years to leave the ECHR? A parliamentary majority could do it within a few months, even with the inevitable opposition of our cringemaking HoL.

If something can be weaponised against you, then it is not fit for purpose.

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Oh no, I'm getting old - cultural references are starting to go over my head. Had to look up 'Lizzo'.

Laugh out loud funny as usual 👏🏻

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Ha ha. Thanks. Actually one of her albums is pretty good!

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Badenoch is correct with regard to not rushing out policy announcements. What's the point? an election is years away. She has been working hard since being elected, trying to rebuild a party that was undoubtedly the architect of it's own downfall. Being in opposition means you have absolutely no control over the media coverage you receive, the generally leftie press are keen to gloss over the Labour fiasco where possible and keep pinning the blame on everyone else. Change is possible but won't come quickly, the election cleared out a fair bit of wet dross from the Conservatives but there is some way to go. Reform are riding high but are disorganized and very top heavy, they have won very few by-elections sine the GE. Their base may be growing generally but is incredibly fragmented. Their policy announcement are worthless but make good copy for the press. It's become something of a bandwagon to write off the Tories, until you spend some time knocking on doors and canvasing actual voters I would be cautious with the grand predictions.

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Fair enough and good points Raf. I just worry she’s being left behind. The public are making up their mind, and maybe it will be hard to change it later.

Thanks so much for taking the trouble to comment.

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Will have to wait and see how things go. I have briefly met Kemi and was pleased to learn that she is a fan of Thomas Sowell and has read a lot of his work.

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Generally, I agree. But for me the Tories are finished. No party can betray the country as they have done and expect ever to regain power. Reform are not yet the answer but I hope they will be by 2029. They need some serious policy analysts, some declared principles, to stake their claim as a future party of Government. At present, they are just a raggle taggle rebel movement.

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I had high hopes of Badenoch, with her free-market views, but she‘s been disappointing. We’ve heard much more defence of free speech and other liberties from the handful of Reform MPs in Parliament than from the Conservatives, perhaps because most of them take no interest in such things.

I think they should formulate their policies soon - it’s been several months since the election - but suspect they can’t, because they are the ones who are most disorganised.

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Yes Valda. They seem less organised with 120 MPs than Reform with 5. Although I guess the Reform guys just do their own thing mainly….

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Of course I share your frustration that, faced with the most appalling, both in terms of basic competence and base vindictiveness, government we have experienced in our lifetimes, Kemi is not kicking the c**p out of Starmer & Co every hour of every day. Yes, it would make us feel a whole lot better but it wouldn’t really change anything.

I know 50 years is a long time ago and maybe beyond most people’s adult or political memories, but I invite you to think about how Margaret Thatcher fared in the two years following her election as Tory leader from 1975-77. She was not an immediate sure footed opponent of Callaghan in Parliament as her previous career might have led you to suspect or her subsequent total command makes you assume. She didn’t get constant good press or general public admiration. But she recognised that an election was 4 years away and that the Party needed a complete policy rebuild after 30 years of Butskellite acceptance of the post WW2 socialist drift. And she knuckled down to it building the policy base that led to the post 1979 programme and her name becoming synonymous with an entire political movement.

Now I’m not saying that Kemi will be a repeat. Obviously I live in hope but I recognise that the late St Margaret was sui generis, the like of whom I’ll probably never see again. Perhaps in a world of 24 hour news and social media coverage we have become much too impatient but I think that 3 months is way too early to make a judgement, particularly when Kemi was quite open that, with an election years away and the media (old media anyway) completely uninterested in anything the party has to say, her focus was on investing the time and effort in redefining what the Tory Party is for and then developing the detailed policies that will flow.

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Fair Paul. But I do not see where Kemi is getting her Keith Joseph from. Where are her radical ideas? What does she stand for? I know she gave that speech at ARC but I’m not seeing a clear vision.

I will have to borrow some of your hope if you don’t mind!

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You’re right that there’s no obvious Powell or Joseph to provide the intellectual heft within the party although the modern equivalents of Arthur Seldon and Ralph Harries, who were equally her gurus, exist. The party seems quite hollowed out intellectually. I see glimmers of serious thinking in people like Steve Baker but it’s thin gruel. Not an encouraging situation but I’ll wait a year before giving up hope.

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A First Class Oxford Chemist versus a computer science grad from Surrey Polytechnic. Backed by the fearsome intellectual firepower of Sir Keith Joseph and some serious thinkers at the IEA, with a clear analysis of what was wrong and what to do about it. Versus Michael Gove and a bunch of mid-wits at the Spectator, the same ones who were behind Johnson and Sunak. A daughter of the English Shires. Versus an immigrant so in touch with Britain they do not understand the sandwich, named after an English Earl, an Earldom named after a town in Kent and thinks Halloween, a Christian festival, is not a thing in a country that has been Christian for over a thousand years. Yeah, Badenoch has all the makings of another Thatcher.

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Lots of snobbery in there, Dan, as well as inaccuracy. Thatcher was not a First Class Oxford graduate; she was a firm Second Class, which for the time before grade inflation was no disgrace, and nobody has ever claimed she was an intellectual giant in the abstract thinking sense. She relied on others for that but made up for it by her phenomenal work ethic, clear principles and political savvy. Kemi Badenoch graduated from the University of Sussex, which, while not Oxford, is not some rebadged polytechnic either. Both subsequently studied law.

I’m not saying Kemi is her equivalent but, given the right support (and I pointed at the IEA in my previous comment) she has the potential to be the best leader of the Conservative Party since Thatcher. Only time will tell and it’s too early to call.

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Awesome, I was offered a threesome once when I was a much younger man, but I said 'no,' my pesky morals got in the way, and I've regretted it every single day since. Still though it's probably for the best, I would have disappointed two women instead of one...

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Ha ha. A narrow escape all round perhaps! 🤔

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Most definitely…

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Spot on again LSO, forwarded.

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Thank you Mrs B!

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Kemi could do worse that read Guido Fawkes in the morning before PMQs. For example there's this lovely list of Labour sleaze - https://order-order.com/2025/02/18/in-full-labours-long-list-of-sleaze-and-scandal-since-coming-to-office/

My count is 20 in what? nine months?

But yeah she's not got the killer instinct and neither does she seem to be a good manager. Both of which are in sharp contrast to her heroine, the Holy St Margaret

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Pmq's is scripted, the questions are submitted in advance beforehand so the pm knows what is coming. It's pure theatre.

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I have greatly enjoyed reading your articles. Thank you.

I keep thinking this Labour government is part of a bad dream which keeps getting worse and yet despite there being obvious ways of avoiding disaster they keep picking the wrong options. I still think I can wake up and it will be ok, but it isn't. Surely, Rachel Reeves is hanging by a thread and must go? Surely, no one can believe the monstrous lies of Ed Miliband? Our wealthy relatives from over the ocean came to visit and offered to help us from being dragged into the quagmire of our EU near neighbours' performative luxury beliefs. But we are paralysed by fear of the truth they speak.

I share your disappointment in Bandenoch. I hope the comments here comparing her time now to Thatcher's early years prove correct, but I think she is lost already and the Tory party unsalvageable.

I think Dominic Cummings identified our problems and was maybe our last hope for the UK DOGE treatment. I dearly wish for UK and EU versions of Musk to appear but I fear both swamps are too professionally entrenched and beyond draining.

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Thank you Jeremy. I too am flabbergasted that Miliband is allowed to sit at the Cabinet table. And has not long been sent, with a carer, to the soft play area at a Wacky Warehouse.

Rather than be inspired by what is happening in the States our betters are reaching for their nosegays. I also worry our nation is too far gone to be salvageable. And yet Meloni and Milieu, among others, give me hope.

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Spot on - they had fourteen years to fix a system they knew is broken, but chose to empower it further. And now? The hot air may have different sounds attached, but there is zero evidence that anything has changed under the bonnet. They are still playing the public for fools. Worrying thing is it’s still working with 21%!

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Hopefully P it will all shake itself out in the next couple of years. I think we’re all worried that with a right this divided we’ll end up with more Labour.

It’s pretty obvious right on culture, left on economics (more left than I would like), and hard on immigration is the way forward. How do we know? Because that’s what the polling says. And that was Johnson’s winning pitch in 2019 though he obviously did not deliver on *checks notes* anything but the leftist economy.

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It’s been over 14 years or more since the 'Conservative' Party has been a party of the right, except for a few brief weeks under Truss, rapidly squashed. Even if Kemi wanted to move in that direction, which is unknown, she would be stymied by her rump of MPs, the vast majority of whom are more at home in the Liberal Democrat Party (old but good joke - neither Libersl, nor Democratic, nor a Party) and a central office entirely focussed on Westminster and Whitehall and not the country at large.

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The Heathrow Terminal 5 planning process took almost 20 years and included the longest Public Inquiry in history.

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Utter madness Ben. I think the third runway was ‘greenlit’ in 2010. Just build it.

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Excellent LSO!! One of your best! Thank you so much! 🙏🏼❤️

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Thanks Ady! Very kind of you to say.

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Kemi's stuffed. What can she possibly say?

'Oh, those taxes you're putting up... err, we did that too.'

'That inflation you're creating by those tax hikes... yeah, that was us.'

'You're destroying employment with more Eu regulation even after Brexit... yeah, that was us'

'People's bills are higher than ever... thanks to our demented net zero policies.'

She has nothing because for 14 miserable years at every opportunity to make the right choice the Tories deliberately, willfully chose the wrong one. They hiked taxes - Boris even praised tax harmonisation for goodness sake!

May rammed the atrocious net zero nonsense on us.

Sunak hiked every tax going, did nothing useful about the problems the nation has (immigration, mainly) and pushed the Windsor agreement on us.

What can Kemi possibly do? Yes, she didn't cause these problems personally but she was elected to lead the party that did. She's not presenting anything new. No new ideas because really she hasn't got any. They live in a bubble, it's a game and ultimately they're all playing using the same rules - to win - for themselves. The damage they do is irrelevant. They couldn't care less.

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